Engine Failure @ 14k miles

Welp I am now part of the club I didn't want to join! At Road America this past weekend for the CCA event the engine let go on the first session of the weekend. Oil was 210, coolant 190, oil full and on warm up laps. Went into turn one, heavy decel, turn in and back on throttle. As soon as I did the car felt like it was at 50% power. It shut off seconds later and I was able to coast it to an access road next to the flagger station. Car started back up but heard awful rod knock and shut it back down immediately. Pulled the oil filter and found glitter.

Absolutely gutted and angry but that will pass. The details of the motor:

Full refresh at 71k miles
BE bearings BE ARP bolts
New OEM seals and gaskets (all)
mPorium vanos covers
polished crank
New OEM main bearings
Eventuri Carbon Plenum
Matt Schnell Intake
Evolve R Tune
Matt Schnell Race Xpipe
Supertech valve springs
Supertech valves (intake and exhaust)
New OEM valve covers
New OEM coils
New OEM Plugs
New TA's @ 50k miles
New BMW Timing Chain Guide Rail
New front and rear main seals
New thermostat
Secondary Air Pump Delete
Matt Schnell UD Pulleys

Oil Used:
Amsoil Signature Series 5W50
Changed less than 1,000 miles ago with oil analysis done (and was clean)


I have not had a chance to pull the pan but will share back when I do. This post is not to shame anyone involved with the car, especially since there has been no inspection to the root cause of the issue. I am finding out alot of extra information about this engine that I think 99% of us aren't privy to, I will share in due time when I get more concrete information. Until then enjoy the photos.

Rubin

Wait, you had new mains too? Jebus, I just assumed that’s what let go.

Ugh. So sorry to hear this.

Condolences to that S65 but hope you are back in the game somehow.

MAN I am sorry to hear that.

In for further diagnosis.

kolosy wrote

Wait, you had new mains too? Jebus, I just assumed that’s what let go.

Yep, this shouldn't of happened but not sure what failed yet. Road America is very difficult on lubrication systems with it's three long straights and super aggressive braking zones at the end of them.

When it failed at turn 1 I was doing about 150mph and broke about 7/10 into the corner (no flying lap yet.) My best hypothesis is oil starvation but we will see.

Rubin

A bit strange to title the thread as bearing failure without knowing what actually failed. Bearing failure doesn't happen spontaneously. If bearings 4 & 8 are toast, I think it points to oil starvation. But again, not bearing failure.

rcracin wrote

A bit strange to title the thread as bearing failure without knowing what actually failed. Bearing failure doesn't happen spontaneously. If bearings 4 & 8 are toast, I think it points to oil starvation. But again, not bearing failure.

From a root cause perspective I agree with you 100%. I am going to change the title to engine failure. Thanks for the feedback.

Rubin

yeah this sounds like oil starvation, especially with high horizontal g forces, although i think even with an extra L added before the session there wasn't anything that can be done.

Lucky for you...I know a S65 for sale in el paso tx :P

kind sucks though, cause this car was immaculate, but it almost feels cursed if you know what i mean..

ill message you on IG or FB when i find it, saw it literally this morning.

omgzirra_exe wrote

yeah this sounds like oil starvation, especially with high horizontal g forces, although i think even with an extra L added before the session there wasn't anything that can be done.

Lucky for you...I know a S65 for sale in el paso tx :P

kind sucks though, cause this car was immaculate, but it almost feels cursed if you know what i mean..

ill message you on IG or FB when i find it, saw it literally this morning.

I definitely know what you mean. That's the frustrating part of this. If I would of money shifted or neglected the engine I could point the finger at me and move on. But when you do as much work as the previous owner and I did to this engine it's super frustrating.

I just pray I can salvage the crank and get by with some new bearings. That's best case scenario. Worst case is I will be hitting up someone with an extra S65 short block (as the heads on mine are built.)

I am deep diving into the oil pump system in the S65 and am learning some opportunities to help overdrive the pumps for track use. More info to come on this once I get deeper into this rabbit hole.

Rubin

former 240 s14 wrote

I definitely know what you mean. That's the frustrating part of this. If I would of money shifted or neglected the engine I could point the finger at me and move on. But when you do as much work as the previous owner and I did to this engine it's super frustrating.

I just pray I can salvage the crank and get by with some new bearings. That's best case scenario. Worst case is I will be hitting up someone with an extra S65 short block (as the heads on mine are built.)

I am deep diving into the oil pump system in the S65 and am learning some opportunities to help overdrive the pumps for track use. More info to come on this once I get deeper into this rabbit hole.

Rubin

the one thing i regret not doing, but not that it matters anymore since i'm not on track as much these days. is getting an oil pan baffle.

if its one thing i learned from my S2K days is that side g forces on the F20C was causing oil starvation, so i added a baffle in the oil pan to keep the pick up full of oil.

I wish i did the same on the M3 at the time. Vac and i know bimmerworld offers a weld in solution? iirc. and the M3 can pull some high side G's...

omgzirra_exe wrote

the one thing i regret not doing, but not that it matters anymore since i'm not on track as much these days. is getting an oil pan baffle.

if its one thing i learned from my S2K days is that side g forces on the F20C was causing oil starvation, so i added a baffle in the oil pan to keep the pick up full of oil.

I wish i did the same on the M3 at the time. Vac and i know bimmerworld offers a weld in solution? iirc. and the M3 can pull some high side G's...

You are right about baffles, very important but with the aluminum nature of our pans you have to be SUPER careful welding and cutting. I have read many oil pan failures from installing these but it's definately worth checking out.

The other items I am considering are an accusump and oil diverter kit. The accusump is not a dry sump but can help in these situations, but I need to research a bit more.

Rubin

former 240 s14 wrote

You are right about baffles, very important but with the aluminum nature of our pans you have to be SUPER careful welding and cutting. I have read many oil pan failures from installing these but it's definately worth checking out.

The other items I am considering are an accusump and oil diverter kit. The accusump is not a dry sump but can help in these situations, but I need to research a bit more.

Rubin

accusump would be nice, have the tank in the rear of the car. def something worth the research if you're going to throw some coin into a rebuild.

if the engine block is fine, i def would go the 4.2-4.4 route.. just to avoid having to machine for sleeving. but if you want the extra displacement then yeah.

again another though i wish i did was bump the compression from 12.1 to 12.5.. make a world of a difference on power output, but you'd need 100oct minimum. i had alot of E85 access so it wasn't a big deal if i did do that.

omgzirra_exe wrote

accusump would be nice, have the tank in the rear of the car. def something worth the research if you're going to throw some coin into a rebuild.

if the engine block is fine, i def would go the 4.2-4.4 route.. just to avoid having to machine for sleeving. but if you want the extra displacement then yeah.

again another though i wish i did was bump the compression from 12.1 to 12.5.. make a world of a difference on power output, but you'd need 100oct minimum. i had alot of E85 access so it wasn't a big deal if i did do that.

Accusumps are not that expensive, about $800 for the kit with an electric valve and 3 quart tank. My thought too was have it near the back of the car for weight, but end of the day 3 quarts of oil is only about 6 lbs (plus the extra from the lines I know but still.) See the link for a 2 quart kit but upsizing to a 3 won't be awful:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ctr-24-126?seid=srese1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwjL3HBhCgARIsAPUg7a4btogefVI4yPe-UAwetRP_oZ0w-0dTwASreDnOPIvwbnTKWIKQdD4aAm7_EALw_wcB

If the cylinder walls are fine I am keeping it bone stock. 100octane is stupid expensive and e85 not totally readily available, although the power bump would be great its not needed. I'd rather spend the money on a 4.10 rear end .

Rubin

Full Rebuild at 71k miles? Who rebuilt your motor and why?

former 240 s14 wrote

You are right about baffles, very important but with the aluminum nature of our pans you have to be SUPER careful welding and cutting. I have read many oil pan failures from installing these but it's definately worth checking out.

The other items I am considering are an accusump and oil diverter kit. The accusump is not a dry sump but can help in these situations, but I need to research a bit more.

Rubin

I have heard mixed things about welding in the baffles. Buying a fresh oil pan and installing the baffles might be the best bet as oil soaked cast aluminum can be fun to weld!

The Corvette guys I run with (that don't have dry sumps) swear by the accusump. This might be something to consider.

I now have anxiety, thanks HAHA.

F4rmost wrote

… accusump. This might be something to consider.

I now have anxiety, thanks HAHA.

Same.

Furiously looking into accusump now. Very curious where this thread goes.

charliev68 wrote

Full Rebuild at 71k miles? Who rebuilt your motor and why?

For now before talking to the builder I would prefer that to remain silent. What I am comfortable saying is that it's a reputable shop in the Mid-West that has been known for their BMW experience.

The motor was rebuilt after the previous owner spun a main bearing in the previous engine. He decided to do a no expense spared build from bottom up. Only remaining original items were rods and pistons with the engine. He was under the belief that the motor would be bullet proof for the track, and common knowledge at that time (at least for me) would agree with that.

Again, for us track rats I am uncovering some good information about the compromises BMW made to make this engine more street friendly versus track friendly. Once I can tear the bottom end down and asses the damage to prove out my hypothesis I will share the findings.

Rubin

F4rmost wrote

I have heard mixed things about welding in the baffles. Buying a fresh oil pan and installing the baffles might be the best bet as oil soaked cast aluminum can be fun to weld!

The Corvette guys I run with (that don't have dry sumps) swear by the accusump. This might be something to consider.

I now have anxiety, thanks HAHA.

I do what I can! lol. I also have heard about the failure issues with these pans, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there!

Rubin

pirategenes wrote

Same.

Furiously looking into accusump now. Very curious where this thread goes.

Start here: https://pinderwagen.com/build-topics/engine/oil-system/accusump-what-is-it-and-how-does-it-work/

one thing that worries me about this is that i feel you would need a standalone to take advantage of the accusump fully, although you can still manage it with out one via pressure switches and stuff, i just think a standalone ecu to dial it in properly is the better route.

omgzirra_exe wrote

one thing that worries me about this is that i feel you would need a standalone to take advantage of the accusump fully, although you can still manage it with out one via pressure switches and stuff, i just think a standalone ecu to dial it in properly is the better route.

Ideally you are spot on. But any accusump is better than no accusump I think, and it's only $800. Not really bad at all in my opinion as it's 1/10th the cost of a drysump lolol. I will eventually move to an AIM dash system or something similar too, not sure how i feel about a full standalone for this build.

Rubin

former 240 s14 wrote

Ideally you are spot on. But any accusump is better than no accusump I think, and it's only $800. Not really bad at all in my opinion as it's 1/10th the cost of a drysump lolol. I will eventually move to an AIM dash system or something similar too, not sure how i feel about a full standalone for this build.

Rubin

would be a good opportunity to switch to electric ps pump as well if AC removal is needed. which it might?