A crisis of image

Janjohn wrote

Being a multi-vehicle family I’ll say the only vehicle makers that don’t listen carefully to the bean counters are out of business or need government subsidies. I think BMW is trying a variety of kidney grilles and edgy features to see what clicks in what markets. I buy a BMW for the engine, handling, and that feeling that it goes exactly where I point it.

This. People can and will disagree on styling, etc. but BMW is doing well overall. All the whining about the new 2 series styling, driving dynamics, and whatever else turned out to be severely over blown, IMO. The G42 and G87 are just fine, thanks. . Show me whats better in the same general price range.

I think sometimes(and Im guilty of this too) the nostalgia sauce is layered on thick when it comes to previous models of cars. Isnt it always "in" to hate new enthusiast models from really any manufacturer with rare exceptions? Been hearing it for years. Blah blah blah.

There are certainly some inconsistencies in BMW’s design language, but whatever you think of the styling, it’s hard to argue with the results. BMW is arguably the only major success story outside of Tesla and the Chinese manufacturers over the past decade.
BMW has never been stronger in terms of sales, customer satisfaction, critical acclaim, and reliability. We literally had a list of know issues for every model before F chassis. New models are competing with Japanese manufacturers in terms of reliability - which was impossible before. The idea was Japanese play safe that's why they're reliable. BMW doesn't play safe, but still is.
And the people claiming BMWs are no longer about the driving experience are FOS. BMWs remain among the best-driving vehicles in their respective classes. The B58/ZF8 combination is potentially one of the greatest ICE powertrains ever made, and they're still improving it! Suspension tuning, xdrive tuning are also pretty much perfect in every new model. And BMW’s EVs are among the best-driving and most well-rounded EVs in their classes as well.

Also, even though it seems to be a popular opinion that newer BMWs are somehow worse, the reality is pretty much the opposite, it's not the popular opinion outside of social media. When we're online, we’re just sitting in a cesspool of naysayers, and bitter, nostalgia-driven people yelling about how everything used to be better. Step outside that bubble and look at the real world—and the actual data—and a very different picture emerges. Virtually every new BMW is objectively better than the model it replaced in the ways that actually matter. ( I’d argue there’s only one real exception: the M5 ) There are so many examples of this. Take the new X3: the same trolls who constantly complain that “BMW isn’t about driving anymore” will obsess day and night over a plastic button on the door, while completely ignoring that the new X3 is faster, more compliant, better to drive, and more efficient.
In other words, it’s better in virtually every area they keep insisting BMW is supposed to be about. But they can’t complain about the way it drives—so suddenly, the hill they’re willing to die on is a plastic button on the door.

BMWs golden era is the present, and I’d buy almost any BMW in the lineup today in a heartbeat. The only exceptions for me are the MINI-platform variants—the X1, X2, and 2 Series Gran Coupe.

Cortexiphan wrote

Take the new X3: the same trolls who constantly complain that “BMW isn’t about driving anymore” will obsess day and night over a plastic button on the door, while completely ignoring that the new X3 is faster, more compliant, better to drive, and more efficient.
In other words, it’s better in virtually every area they keep insisting BMW is supposed to be about. But they can’t complain about the way it drives—so suddenly, the hill they’re willing to die on is a plastic button on the door.

I've only owned 3 BMWs, but my wife & her family have always had a BMW something in their driveway. So I don't have any nostalgia for the brand at all. Nor am I loyal to one brand. We just had a new X3 x-drive i30 for a rental for 5 days last week & that thing sucked.

Granted I've never driven a previous, non-M, X3 for any lenth of time, so maybe this version is better than those, but that's not saying much.

The only positive it had from a driving experience was it's range. We drove all over Northern IL for 5 days and only used 1/2 tank. It lacked any kind of power - even in sport mode, handling was meh - actually it wandered a lot on the highways.

The interior was awful & that's where we spend all our time when driving a vehicle. Huge, gaudy ambient light panels that looked really cheap (supposed to look like glass I guess), giant plastic panel on the doors that house the lock/unlock "button" - not even a button anymore. Weird 0-1 touch sliders on the doors and under the center vents (I guess they open/close the vents). Over-sized door handles. Seats were not very cofortable. And the doors opened so wide that even on the first stop I had to literally lean way outside the vehicle to grab the door to close it. Everything felt like it would break just by looking at it.


Add in the mix of several different interior patterns/colors: fake wood looking trim on the center console, piano black for the steering wheel buttons & a panel on the door cards, silver trim around the screen & door handles, and the "glass"-looking ambient light panels. The entire interior was a mess. Nothing about that vehicle made me think, oh this would be a nice vehicle to own.

Just trash.

Mikey240 wrote

This. People can and will disagree on styling, etc. but BMW is doing well overall. All the whining about the new 2 series styling, driving dynamics, and whatever else turned out to be severely over blown, IMO. The G42 and G87 are just fine, thanks. . Show me whats better in the same general price range.

I think sometimes(and Im guilty of this too) the nostalgia sauce is layered on thick when it comes to previous models of cars. Isnt it always "in" to hate new enthusiast models from really any manufacturer with rare exceptions? Been hearing it for years. Blah blah blah.

Agreed. At the same time, "show me what's better in the same general price range" is a temporary gift to BMW from competitors. BMW is aware - no doubt.

brianeck wrote

Also that x5, sure, you can take a picture of where it says it has 22mpg. But over a long period of time its gonna revert up 17/18 all day. And that same Subaru, gonna revert to 20/21. Your x5 does not get better gas mileage, fact.

Truth. My E70 diesel is CAPABLE of better gas mileage if I baby it. But it instead gets 18mpg.

cfm56d7b wrote

Agreed. At the same time, "show me what's better in the same general price range" is a temporary gift to BMW from competitors. BMW is aware - no doubt.

Could be temporary, yes. But I wonder - what else is the competition coming out with in the same price range that:

1) Has two doors and is a proper coupe.
2) Has a Wonderful, powerful engine that is also efficient.
3) Has a Pleasant interior, if not a little too techy.
4) Drives like a dream but can "play" rather hard if one wishes.
5) Looks cool.
6) Isnt over-exposed so you see 100 of them a day like some cars.

I have two ‘08 E82’s and have been lurking on here for a while. After reading this whole thread while on lunch today (a lot of these posts came in during daytime TV hours 🧐), this is worth my first post.

Zero chance I’m moving from my cars to a new BMW. Aside from all that mismatched trim, all of the assistive technology alone is enough to scare me off. Call me old and resistive to change, but my cars are fun without all of that nonsense.

We just got a ‘23 RDX for the better half, and I just don’t drive it. It’s too much. The steering wheel even moves itself if it thinks you’re crossing a lane line. 😑

hrrmph wrote

I have two ‘08 E82’s and have been lurking on here for a while. After reading this whole thread while on lunch today (a lot of these posts came in during daytime TV hours 🧐), this is worth my first post.

Zero chance I’m moving from my cars to a new BMW. Aside from all that mismatched trim, all of the assistive technology alone is enough to scare me off. Call me old and resistive to change, but my cars are fun without all of that nonsense.

We just got a ‘23 RDX for the better half, and I just don’t drive it. It’s too much. The steering wheel even moves itself if it thinks you’re crossing a lane line. 😑

And that’s perfectly fine. Do what ya gotta do.

Most of the assistance stuff can be simply shut off though. I’m sure Acura also allows this. I hate that stuff too but like I said, I just disable it.

No question that all this tech, computers, sensors, etc. is a bit much. I know. I might never get fully used to my car having a giant iPad strewn across the dash. I miss regular controls for HVAC and a few other things.

But, when it’s time to play, my car can & does play very well. Killer drivetrain, nice handling which can be made better with minor adjustments and enough (no NOT old school road feel and feedback) to earn a passing grade. Im having fun here.

Mikey240 wrote

Most of the assistance stuff can be simply shut off though. I’m sure Acura also allows this. I hate that stuff too but like I said, I just disable it.

Some automakers are not making it so you cannot turn those "safety" features off. I forget what vehicle we recently had for a rental but there was no way to disable lane keeping and lane alert. Pushing the button did nothing, and the option to uncheck them in the settings was greyed out.

zx10guy wrote

I actually think much of the people buying isn't about the styling but the badge. BMW has done a great job of combining social prestige with owning a BMW.

Neah - luxury buyers have options, and the fact of BMW sales growing y/y is the ultimate answer to the question whether or not the styling updates are landing or falling flat.

I don't particularly like G80 styling, but the fact that G80 outsold F80 means BMW made the right styling decision for the overall market. Not necessarily for me, but for the market overall.
https://machineswithsouls.com/how-many-bmw-g8x-have-been-sold/

brianeck wrote

Just for reference I'm not even just saying that everything on there is "bad" (but some of it definitely is). I'm more shocked just by how there is no thematic identity whatsoever across all the different models. There are 13 different iterations of kidney grills - some are round, some are more octagonal, some are hoffmeistery, some are vertical, some are f***ing huge.

Yeah, the lineup is going through design language refresh with NK (Neue Klasse, not North Korea) styling showing up as cars are updated. It will take 2-4 years for the full lineup refresh to look semi-consistent.

Until then, the best looking new BMW (to my eyes) is the upcoming ///M3 EV that returns to the horizontal (not vertical) kidney grills:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a71563004/bmw-concept-m-neue-klasse-revealed/

Manhattan wrote

BMW is (was?) positioned as the car for people who like to drive. Contrast that with MB and Lexus - more for those who tolerate driving.

That's a gross exegeration.
Lexus LFA will outhandle and LC500 will out-"look" and out-"sound" anything in BMW lineup.
Just like Model 3 will now out-handle and out-accelerate G20 (they weight about the same!).

The only decent BMWs are a few true ///M-cars (not trucks).
The rest of the lineup is design to appeal to the mini-van/SUV buyers.

Manhattan wrote

as the world moves to EVs, it's going to be tough for BMW. "Hearing" and "feeling" the car don't mean the same thing in an EV.

"Feeling" the car and "handling" mean exactly the same thing, regardless of method of propulation. Don't let EV-haters tell you otherwise.
Go and test drive a Model 3 Performance and see for yourself. Or better yet, wait for ///M3-EV to come out!

It is what it is.

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afadeev wrote

It is what it is.

a

There's this neat thing called sensory mismatch. It's likely why motion sickness is sometimes worse in EVs. We expect one thing and perceive another. It's also worse in modern over insulated cars. My wife can correlate this to her motion sickness. Sensory mismatch also leads to bored drivers. A thing happens, but you don't feel it, so did it happen? Did the driver even do anything at all? Yawn.

I'd suggest this disconnect is somewhat driving society to become increasingly disinterested in cars and driving. It's become boring.

So unless automakers can figure out how to put the "feeling" back in driving, the situation will get worse. Too bad an entire generation has now been born who never sat in something interesting. Even performance cars are too point and click. I don't want my cars to go where I point them, I want them to give me feedback about what's happening so I can make it go where I want it to.

ShocknAwe wrote

afadeev wrote

It is what it is.

a

There's this neat thing called sensory mismatch. It's likely why motion sickness is sometimes worse in EVs. We expect one thing and perceive another. It's also worse in modern over insulated cars. My wife can correlate this to her motion sickness. Sensory mismatch also leads to bored drivers. A thing happens, but you don't feel it, so did it happen? Did the driver even do anything at all? Yawn.

I'd suggest this disconnect is somewhat driving society to become increasingly disinterested in cars and driving. It's become boring.

So unless automakers can figure out how to put the "feeling" back in driving, the situation will get worse. Too bad an entire generation has now been born who never sat in something interesting. Even performance cars are too point and click. I don't want my cars to go where I point them, I want them to give me feedback about what's happening so I can make it go where I want it to.

I think you misinterpreted my “goes where I point it” phrase. “Goes where I point it” is something understood among drivers and target shooters. I mean that when I’m driving I don’t have to constantly take into account the weird eccentricities of the car. In target shooting I don’t constantly adjust the scope or the sights.

My take on the styling is that there's too much mix n' match coming out of Munich hq, is the boss hiring and firing designers on a whim?

ShocknAwe is winning this thread. E70 M57. A man of culture and taste.

ShocknAwe wrote

There's this neat thing called sensory mismatch. It's likely why motion sickness is sometimes worse in EVs. We expect one thing and perceive another. It's also worse in modern over insulated cars. My wife can correlate this to her motion sickness.

I have 2 EVs + 2 ICE vehicles.
Zero motion sickness in either.
Are you sure your doesn't have some other medical condition? Motion sickness is not a big thing with vehicles, in general.

ShocknAwe wrote

Sensory mismatch also leads to bored drivers. A thing happens, but you don't feel it, so did it happen? Did the driver even do anything at all? Yawn.

I have no idea what you are talking about now. EVs are not as silent at highway speeds as proper luxury cars are. Primary source of noise are tire/road whine and wind buffeting.

Are you yawning in falling asleep in S-class, 7-series, and Lexus cars?
Is that really a valid complaint against all well engineered luxury cars?

ShocknAwe wrote

So unless automakers can figure out how to put the "feeling" back in driving, the situation will get worse. Too bad an entire generation has now been born who never sat in something interesting.

I could not disagree more.
We live at the MOST interesting times of automotive performance development. And the future is only brighter.

"Feeling" in a fun cars come from handling feedback, balance, and performance. Not random noises coming from propulsion plant.

If you think it's all about engine noises, they you must be a fan of all the fake noises being piped through the speakers in modern ICE cars? I can certainly do with less of that.

Give me proper 50:50 corner balance across all wheels, well designed suspension, and power. And I'm happy.

The 0-60 of sub-3 seconds across modern ///M-cars and Performance Tesla's is fantastic. When growing up, Ferrari F40 (the one with big ass wing) cost $400K new (~$1.6M now) and did 0-60 in 3.7 seconds with twin turbo 3.0L V8. I can beat that in a $55K Model 3P or $85K M3.

This is awesome!

a

afadeev wrote

Motion sickness is not a big thing with vehicles, in general.

This is incredibly incorrect.
Renders your further wall of text completely meritless.

JABCAT wrote

Some automakers are not making it so you cannot turn those "safety" features off. I forget what vehicle we recently had for a rental but there was no way to disable lane keeping and lane alert. Pushing the button did nothing, and the option to uncheck them in the settings was greyed out.

Oh geez. I figured that stuff could always be disabled. That would be a big, fat NO from me then. If I couldn’t disable that stuff in my car I’d have not bought it.

afadeev wrote

Neah - luxury buyers have options, and the fact of BMW sales growing y/y is the ultimate answer to the question whether or not the styling updates are landing or falling flat.

I don't particularly like G80 styling, but the fact that G80 outsold F80 means BMW made the right styling decision for the overall market. Not necessarily for me, but for the market overall.
https://machineswithsouls.com/how-many-bmw-g8x-have-been-sold/

Yeah, the lineup is going through design language refresh with NK (Neue Klasse, not North Korea) styling showing up as cars are updated. It will take 2-4 years for the full lineup refresh to look semi-consistent.

Until then, the best looking new BMW (to my eyes) is the upcoming ///M3 EV that returns to the horizontal (not vertical) kidney grills:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a71563004/bmw-concept-m-neue-klasse-revealed/

That's a gross exegeration.
Lexus LFA will outhandle and LC500 will out-"look" and out-"sound" anything in BMW lineup.
Just like Model 3 will now out-handle and out-accelerate G20 (they weight about the same!).

The only decent BMWs are a few true ///M-cars (not trucks).
The rest of the lineup is design to appeal to the mini-van/SUV buyers.

"Feeling" the car and "handling" mean exactly the same thing, regardless of method of propulation. Don't let EV-haters tell you otherwise.
Go and test drive a Model 3 Performance and see for yourself. Or better yet, wait for ///M3-EV to come out!

It is what it is.

a

Styling is always subjective but the newer look of many modern BMWs appears to be good enough to sell cars. That’s what they gotta do.

That’s cool you like EVs and they’re fine for running errands and stuff. But that’s where any possible interest I’d have in one ends. Edmunds can like the Tesla better all they want but that’s just their take on it.

For a lot of us, the EV platform just isn’t going to ever work for our performance or weekend cars. I know it’s a beaten-horse at this stage but petrol power has so many intangibles and impossible-to-replace nuances. You just cannot ever get there with an EV. Doesn’t matter if the EV goes from 0-100 in -4 seconds. That’s not the issue.

afadeev wrote

I have 2 EVs + 2 ICE vehicles.
Zero motion sickness in either.
Are you sure your doesn't have some other medical condition? Motion sickness is not a big thing with vehicles, in general.



I have no idea what you are talking about now. EVs are not as silent at highway speeds as proper luxury cars are. Primary source of noise are tire/road whine and wind buffeting.

Are you yawning in falling asleep in S-class, 7-series, and Lexus cars?
Is that really a valid complaint against all well engineered luxury cars?



I could not disagree more.
We live at the MOST interesting times of automotive performance development. And the future is only brighter.

"Feeling" in a fun cars come from handling feedback, balance, and performance. Not random noises coming from propulsion plant.

If you think it's all about engine noises, they you must be a fan of all the fake noises being piped through the speakers in modern ICE cars? I can certainly do with less of that.

Give me proper 50:50 corner balance across all wheels, well designed suspension, and power. And I'm happy.

The 0-60 of sub-3 seconds across modern ///M-cars and Performance Tesla's is fantastic. When growing up, Ferrari F40 (the one with big ass wing) cost $400K new (~$1.6M now) and did 0-60 in 3.7 seconds with twin turbo 3.0L V8. I can beat that in a $55K Model 3P or $85K M3.

This is awesome!

a

You're way off the mark, this post is beyond misunderstanding. I'd try to explain where you're wrong but it would take me all day.

Glad you're enjoying your purchases, I'm happy for you.

Mikey240 wrote

Styling is always subjective but the newer look of many modern BMWs appears to be good enough to sell cars. That’s what they gotta do.

Agreed.
I'm personally not a big fan of last ~10 years of BMW styling direction, but I have to admit that my opinion matters little next to BMW's growing sales.

Mikey240 wrote

Edmunds can like the Tesla better all they want but that’s just their take on it.

That wasn't the point.
Edmonds review was a counter-point to the guy who claimed that EVs can "feel" or "handle" as well as ICE cars. Which isn't true, Edmunds was just one of the comparison that poped up to illustrate that point.

Any car can be engineered and manfuactured to handle well, or poorly, regardless of the method of propulsion.
Car guys like well handling, responsive, and quick cars. Many EVs and ICE cars fit that bill these days. The more the marrier!

Mikey240 wrote

petrol power has so many intangibles and impossible-to-replace nuances. You just cannot ever get there with an EV.

Really?
Like what?

ShocknAwe wrote

You're way off the mark, this post is beyond misunderstanding. I'd try to explain where you're wrong but it would take me all day.

That's OK, expressiveness is a learned skill.
Don't give up!

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