oil question

Jamie, of course, a mechanic will always recommend excessive oil changes. Why don't you tell the class your markup on the synthetic oil used by the M3?

I prefer to take the advice of the car manufacturer, who's on the hook for the warranty.

Dave

dcstep wrote

Big Daddy rebuilt the engine after every run!! The stresses of 1500 hp are not what we're talking about. Beside, Big Daddy was using cave man oil, the best available in his day.

Dave

Agreed...

Simply put... if someone wants to change the oil before the recomended 15000 miles, it will not hurt the engine... In most cases its a good thing.

In my case, with everything thing else I use that requires synthetic oil... the oil does not last 1/4 the amount of time the manufacturer states... I know this for a fact from the oil test I have done on my planes... I just dont feel the need to test the oil on anything else... I just change it when I feel the need... and if the need arises because the oil doesnt look as fresh as I would like to be, then so be it.

BMRLVR wrote

I will repeat: You don't know what you are talking about. Please stop, you are just making yourself look stupid to those of us that do know.

Please explain how it makes me look stupid to follow BMW's advice on this subject. What resources do have that exceed BMW's when making this type decision? Why would it be in BMW's interest to lead us astray on this issue since they hold the warranty obligation?

The OP can read my advice and read BMW's advice and read yours, then make a choice for himself.

Dave

likestogofast wrote

...

Simply put... if someone wants to change the oil before the recomended 15000 miles, it will not hurt the engine...

I DO agree 100% with this statement.

However, I think that anyone considering accelerated oil changes should consider the issue of waste.

Dave

I don't think anyone has said anything stupid... lets keep this on a level that is productive, we are discussing our personal views on oil...

Is it a waste to change the oil in a BMW M3 before the standard interval as stated by BMW...

dcstep wrote

I DO agree 100% with this statement.

However, I think that anyone considering accelerated oil changes should consider the issue of waste.

Dave

What actually happens to the oil that is changed out of our cars?

Is synthetic oil a real load on the worlds oil reserves? How much pertroleum is actually used in synthetic oil manufacturing? (I can never be able to spell pertroleum right)

dcstep wrote

Jamie, of course, a mechanic will always recommend excessive oil changes. Why don't you tell the class your markup on the synthetic oil used by the M3?

I prefer to take the advice of the car manufacturer, who's on the hook for the warranty.

Dave

My friend, the BMW warranty only goes to 50k, 100k with the extended warranty. You have to realize that the engine will be fine up to 100k at their recommended interval. It will be later on down the road that issues will crop up due to excessive wear from sludge build up and blocked oil passages causing oil starvation to various parts of the engine. You also have to realize that BMW only changed to the longer intervals when they started including free maintenance, a coincedence, I think not. Like I said in a previous post: If you intend to keep the car for a long time or >100k change at 5K. If you are only going to have it for a few years or <100k follow their schedule.

P.S. the only reason a mechanic would recommend excessive oil changes is that oil is cheap compared to repairs. Oh and mechanics dont get any kickback from oilchanges they are paid flat rate to do them. I am a Heavy Equipment Technician, I don't work for a BMW dealer so it makes no difference to me.

BMRLVR wrote

My friend, the BMW warranty only goes to 50k, 100k with the extended warranty. You have to realize that the engine will be fine up to 100k at their recommended interval. It will be later on down the road that issues will crop up due to excessive wear from sludge build up and blocked oil passages causing oil starvation to various parts of the engine. You also have to realize that BMW only changed to the longer intervals when they started including free maintenance, a coincedence, I think not. Like I said in a previous post: If you intend to keep the car for a long time or >100k change at 5K. If you are only going to have it for a few years or <100k follow their schedule.

This is a very good point... when it all comes down to it, isnt it about how much profit BMW has at the end of a quarter...

It seems like 5k is more of the magic number than 7500...

dcstep wrote

Maybe you can't read or comphrehend what you're reading. There's no validity at all to comparing metals content to "averages" of who-knows-what from other samples. Those will vary a ton based on the metals of the engine. That whole first section of the report shows nothing disturbing.

As for viscosity, where does the "should be" come from? Even it it's correct, the difference is very minor at 210-degrees. More important, what is the characteristic of the fresh specified oil and how has it changed, if at all. This particular oil sample was short circuited and meaningless because the oil hasn't even begun to be stressed apparently. There's almost nothing scientific out this example. Looks to me like a lab thought of a way to make some money on the side.

Also, the OP blew up an earlier engine, so I wonder if his usage can be classified at "normal". Note that all my posts suggests complying with the BMW oil change recommendations for "normal usage." I suspect that the OP is a racer and high temperature operation probably should lead to modifying the oil change routine. OTOH, our OP on this thread didn't mention racing or any other high stress usage.

Dave

The only problem with the new M3... there is no damn dipstick... With this said, it makes it very hard to do a quick spot check of the oil... I have to rely on giving the thing a finger in the fill spout... seems a bit invasive to me...

Jamie, I appreciate your advice and think you're sincere, but I think there's a good chance that you're wrong about this particular use of synthetics. I wonder, is the interval different in Canada where they don't cover the cost of the changes? I don't know, but when did the M3s start using synthetics?

BTW, I tend to keep my cars 10 to 15 years. My history with non-synthetics was to change between 6 and 7000 miles, EXCEPT when I was autocrossing the car, then I'd change at 3,500 miles. I don't drive a ton of miles per year, so the cars will generally have 150,000 to 200,000 miles on them when I finally sell them. I've never had oil related issues.

I tend to think that the guys coming on Speed Channel for Valvoline saying to change oil every 3,000 miles are selling oil, not the best interests of most owners.

I may just collect a sample from my M3 every 1500 miles or so and send it into that lab in the other thread. It'd be interesting to see the deterioration pattern as we get past the 7,500 mark, in particular.

Dave

likestogofast wrote

Old school engine builders, ie Big Daddy Don Garlits and a long list of others used to visualize oil all the time... the school of though was... If it's burnt change it...

You can tell it's burnt by looking at it? I find this strange too. First off, burnt oil goes out your tail pipe with the other exhaust gasses. Second the brown or black color oil changes has nothing to do with it being burnt, that is caused by exhaust gasses blowing past the piston rings and mixing with the oil. Oil gets changed when the additives break down, not when the color changes.

I also don't see why you can't drive a M3 and not want to waste natural resources? Sure it burns a lot of gas, but why would you also need to waste resources on unnecessary oil changes? All the energy that goes into making oil? The shipping and recycling of old oil? Completely unnecessary and serves no purpose other than to inflate your mechanics wallet and the wallet of oil companies.

If the issue here is wasting resources... then we all are driving the wrong cars... like I said before, it makes me feel better... as for your comment about burnt oil, maybe burnt was a wrong word to describe what you see... how about contaminated, or discolored...

Now if you want to start a debate on my over use of natural resources, I cant even defend myself... last year I went through roughly 5000 gallons of avgas, 13200 gallons of Cam2... and somewhere around 580 quarts of Synthetic oil (which samples from about 420 quarts of oil changes were sent to a lab) ... none of this includes any automobiles...

I suggest you change your oil once between oil services from BMW...

dcstep wrote

Jamie, I appreciate your advice and think you're sincere, but I think there's a good chance that you're wrong about this particular use of synthetics. I wonder, is the interval different in Canada where they don't cover the cost of the changes? I don't know, but when did the M3s start using synthetics?

BTW, I tend to keep my cars 10 to 15 years. My history with non-synthetics was to change between 6 and 7000 miles, EXCEPT when I was autocrossing the car, then I'd change at 3,500 miles. I don't drive a ton of miles per year, so the cars will generally have 150,000 to 200,000 miles on them when I finally sell them. I've never had oil related issues.

I tend to think that the guys coming on Speed Channel for Valvoline saying to change oil every 3,000 miles are selling oil, not the best interests of most owners.

I may just collect a sample from my M3 every 1500 miles or so and send it into that lab in the other thread. It'd be interesting to see the deterioration pattern as we get past the 7,500 mark, in particular.

Dave

There was s great thread on E90post last year of a guy sending away his oil for testing etc, he changed sooner than BMW recommended.

I'll see if I can find it. There was certainly interesting results. Now his was a FI car not NA so things will still be diff.

Got it

See Blackstone report on my N54 - Wear metals went UP!

Thanks to no dipstick I got an early oil change by BMW...

Stupid BMW mechanic overfilled my car when electronic dipstick showed it a bit low. (stupid because he insisted he knew how much to put in.) They then drained it all out find it was just barely over full, and replaced it with new oil.

That'll build your confidence in your SA...

Thanks Sparkyg, that was interesting. Do you know, does the 335i use the same oil as the M3?

I might still try to send off two or three samples to Blackstone between now and 15k. I'm just under 3k right now, so maybe I'll get a sample at 5 and 10k and then a final sample at the 15k change. My low mileage may put me beyond 12 months to get to 15k, but the samples would show me the moisture content, etc.

Dave

dcstep wrote

Thanks Sparkyg, that was interesting. Do you know, does the 335i use the same oil as the M3?

I'm not sure what oil the 335i uses, but i'm sure it's not the 10W60 Castrol Motorsport oil the M's use.

dcstep wrote

Thanks Sparkyg, that was interesting. Do you know, does the 335i use the same oil as the M3?

I might still try to send off two or three samples to Blackstone between now and 15k. I'm just under 3k right now, so maybe I'll get a sample at 5 and 10k and then a final sample at the 15k change. My low mileage may put me beyond 12 months to get to 15k, but the samples would show me the moisture content, etc.

Dave

The 335 used 5-40 I believe but I used Mobil 1 0-40 for some of my changes.

Definitely not the 10-60 we use. We gotta use that stuff and over the winter I had no issues.

I am gonna do a change in May even just since I ran it over the dirty, filthy winter

First off, I want to apologize for implying anyone was stupid. Secondly I have much experience working on, repairing, and rebuilding internal combustion piston engines.

During a tear down you can easily tell an engine that had regular 5k mile OCI's as opposed to an engine that has had extended OCI's. The 5k engine will always be cleaner inside and show less wear than those with longer intervals.

The reason for this is simple. Although a synthetic oil is superior in many ways to a petroleum based oil it is not that much better that you can double the OCI. Synthetics are much more stable at high temperatures and pressures which is largely what makes them better. Resistance to shear is another superior point of synthetics(they maintain their viscosity much better and for a longer period of time).

With that being said these are not big considerations for those of us who street drive our cars. What kills our oil life is the depleted additive pack that occurs over time, wear metals and suspended solids and fuel dilution. Most of us will never come close to overtaxing the basestock that our oils are made of through street driving and limited track time . We kill our oil with short trips where the engine barely reaches operating temperature and don't have a chance to boil off the water that it picks up from condensation on a cold start. The oil also ends up with fuel dilution that occurs from extended idling where cylinder pressure is at a minimum and the seal of the rings is poor due to this lack of pressure to help them seal. Finally the additive pack just plain depletes over time. No matter if you are talking conventional oil or synthetic they both have an additive pack, and the synthetic does not necessarily have a better one.

Now to talk about engines. BMW engines although highly technically advanced do not have magic pistons and rings that are totally superior to the competition or the rest of the automotive world. The rings are where you get all of your contaminants entering the oil from the combustion chamber to the sump due to blow by. Infact the M engines which like to use a little more oil than the run of the mill BMW engines have looser tolerances due to their high-revving nature. This would lead me to believe that they would have slightly more blowby on the rings therefore necessitating more frequent OCI's.

In closing I must say that I also have a Toyota Tundra that I follow the manufacturers schedule for oil changes because they have a sensible 5k mile. Suggested interval.

Like I said before if you intend to keep your car do an oilchange every 5k or so or at the very least, every 7.5k. If you are leasing or don't intend to retain the vehicle out of warranty follow their schedule. BMW's obligation to repairing your engine ends when the warranty does so I'd bet they are quite sure their service intervals are enough to have it last at least that long. After the car is out of warranty they get to sell you parts and labour. If I were BMW and I knew that I could get away with minimum maintenance and expenditure and still not have to pay any warranty claims the bare minimum is all I would do.

Great post Jaimie.

You covered all the classic arguments; however, I can't understand why BMW would recommend a wider interval if it's harmful. They seem to have gone to a lot of trouble with oil selection, yet here we are worrying about their suggested OCI. Even if their obligation ends after the warranty, they don't want M3s failing prematurely, no matter what mileage. At least that's what I suspect and believe.

Maybe a few of us need to write to Roundel, C&D and R&T to see if we can get a rise from BMW. They're probably not going to come on here and address our concerns, but they might answer the phone from one of those publications and have their scientists weigh in. What do you think?

Dave