AA Stage 2+ & VT1 535

akh23456 wrote

numbers are right on from what i have seen. I met M33 and Img really cool guys and down to earth and had nothing but good things to say about various kits. If you guys want to compare a 535 kit vs a stage 2 + i am more than welcome to run when we go over the border. I think Dynos just show you gains and are good indicator on how your car is performing..i feel deltas from before and after dynos is worth it. As for meth its doesnt do anything but cool. Img and M33 say my on and off switch for my meth so you know its not tuned for it. I wish i got a ride in one of your cars on sunday but well save it from next time. Any guys with the ess kit run any quarter mile times? I seem to have the highest trap for a SC e90 M3 so far in the northeast or i could be wrong. 124 mph at 11.8 with a 2.3 60.

Hey Akash, it was great meeting u as well and i cant wait to have a get together soon,i understand that the meth doesnt really add much HP when not tuned for it and its for cooling purposes.
i havent ran my car on the strip for reasons that the car never feels the same again but ive ran 60-130 and i think i have the record for the VT2 600 6MT with stock cats 7.8 !!!

tazam3 wrote

Im curious to know if some of you guys have day jobs or are retired and voluntarily work for ESS at this point?

I'm retired but strip occasionally for mod money.....
Why are you getting so offended , no one bashed Aa product, just asked questions based on facts that were already posted here

Are you retired and secretly working for Aa u seem the most offended

img wrote

Hey Akash, it was great meeting u as well and i cant wait to have a get together soon,i understand that the meth doesnt really add much HP when not tuned for it and its for cooling purposes.
i havent ran my car on the strip for reasons that the car never feels the same again but ive ran 60-130 and i think i have the record for the VT2 600 6MT with stock cats 7.8 !!!

i want to see some quarter mile times from some of the higher ess kits...i will soon have a v-box if not borrow lm's for some 60-130 times soon. Congrats on the record Img.

akh23456 wrote

i want to see some quarter mile times from some of the higher ess kits...i will soon have a v-box if not borrow lm's for some 60-130 times soon. Congrats on the record Img.

U can borrow mine anytime u would like !!!

DLSJ5
I managed a 11.30 @ 129.34 MPH 1.97 60', not too shabby for a full weight car, at 7.2psi on 95 octane. The Vbox said 11.33 @ 130.5 MPH, 2.0 60', right where it should be, the Vbox normally reads a slightly slower ET, but roughly a 1MPH higher trap, so very close comparing the two at Famoso. I couldn't get full traction all night, but got decent traction on this one run, on the Vbox graph you can see some traction issues prior to 60MPH or so.

Im going to guess this dyno was made with the Sonic project car as Darwin stated last week Robert was going to dyno the car and he never followed up. My guess is he was not happy with the results so he did not want to post them.

I think one thing that needs to be mentioned is that this car was tested in california on 91 octane unlike the AA dyno's and the dyno posted by akh23456 on the east coast that are run on 93 so it can be assumed until more dyno's from 91 octane users are posted that this is close to what you will make with the AA stage 2+ on 91.

If you check akh23456 own thread he posted a dyno making very close to this same power with his stage 2+ kit http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=513361&page=2 As you can see there is a dyno of his car making 465 whp sae and there is a dyno of it making 487 whp sae in 4th gear that has been posted so im not sure why Omar is saying these numbers do not represent the kit "considering the octane difference" unless this car and akh both are having issues.


Jean

If you are going to post your own AA made dyno's you need to make the DRF files available with boost. As you can clearly see the dyno's you made do not match what your customers are posting. Even with your highest in-house dyno you are making 50 whp less than ESS stage 2 customer made dyno's at the same rated power crank. Also can you explain why the AA kit can't make power past 8K?

Taza

Pot calling the kettle black ? You spend as much time defending AA on the forums as they do and you do not even own an E92 M3. You should lay off the smack talk.

For the 1/4 mile guys who say dyno's do not matter, Drew ran a 130 mph trap with his DCT VT2-625 and has posted the results. Mikewads ran a 126 mph with his DCT VT2-575 and this was also posted on this forum I believe.

img wrote

All what i did is post a dyno and ask for some questions based on facts,i didnt bash or put down anyone in any way,also mentioned that ive delt with AA in the past and nothing but a great product and great experience.

It was not directed at you, nor did I mean to antagonize you or burden you. I'm apologize if I offended you.

My comments were very general as I've seen similar post spiral into an ugly mess. I really love this community, but there has been hickups, and drama, and name calling, and few falling outs which is really upsetting for me as it's hard to find a group of people who are so focused and passionate about a single commonality (the M3).

DublinM3 wrote

Im going to guess this dyno was made with the Sonic project car as Darwin stated last week Robert was going to dyno the car and he never followed up. My guess is he was not happy with the results so he did not want to post them.

I think one thing that needs to be mentioned is that this car was tested in california on 91 octane unlike the AA dyno's and the dyno posted by akh23456 on the east coast that are run on 93 so it can be assumed until more dyno's from 91 octane users are posted that this is close to what you will make with the AA stage 2+ on 91.

If you check akh23456 own thread he posted a dyno making very close to this same power with his stage 2+ kit http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=513361&page=2 As you can see there is a dyno of his car making 465 whp sae and there is a dyno of it making 487 whp sae in 4th gear that has been posted so im not sure why Omar is saying these numbers do not represent the kit "considering the octane difference" unless this car and akh both are having issues.


Jean

If you are going to post your own AA made dyno's you need to make the DRF files available with boost. As you can clearly see the dyno's you made do not match what your customers are posting. Even with your highest in-house dyno you are making 50 whp less than ESS stage 2 customer made dyno's at the same rated power crank. Also can you explain why the AA kit can't make power past 8K?

Taza

Pot calling the kettle black ? You spend as much time defending AA on the forums as they do and you do not even own an E92 M3. You should lay off the smack talk.

For the 1/4 mile guys who say dyno's do not matter, Drew ran a 130 mph trap with his DCT VT2-625 and has posted the results. Mikewads ran a 126 mph with his DCT VT2-575 and this was also posted on this forum I believe.

My car is running just fine and happy with the number and deff produces some good results. Some of you guys are looking to closely to the dyno number which is fine but not looking at real world performance. Yes the 535 kits Put higher numbers down on dyno but cant break the 120 mph from recent post. (I havn't looked into the number to well so don't beat me up if i am wrong). How is it possible?( driver affect everything but with that much more power it should be trapping higher than me.) yes dct helps but only by 1-2 mphs correct or am i totally off?

Akh let's all plan a day for the strip , we all cool bro !! You guys were cool as well I would have hung out more but my spit fire son wouldn't sit still plus he kept talking shit to everyone on who's car is faster rofl I wonder where he gets it from

Studntloan wrote

tazam3 wrote

Im curious to know if some of you guys have day jobs or are retired and voluntarily work for ESS at this point?

I'm retired but strip occasionally for mod money.....
Why are you getting so offended , no one bashed Aa product, just asked questions based on facts that were already posted here

Are you retired and secretly working for Aa u seem the most offended

Actually I'm not offended I'm quite disappointed from the BMW community. There's a couple pro ESS guys that simply take it too far. For reasons I do not know...

For example Drew, (sorry to bring you up bud) he has one of the fastest ESS cars and makes a ton of videos for them. He does not sit here and bash on other vendors. He also has my full respect bc of his attitude and no bs posts.

DublinM3 wrote

Im going to guess this dyno was made with the Sonic project car as Darwin stated last week Robert was going to dyno the car and he never followed up. My guess is he was not happy with the results so he did not want to post them.

I think one thing that needs to be mentioned is that this car was tested in california on 91 octane unlike the AA dyno's and the dyno posted by akh23456 on the east coast that are run on 93 so it can be assumed until more dyno's from 91 octane users are posted that this is close to what you will make with the AA stage 2+ on 91.

If you check akh23456 own thread he posted a dyno making very close to this same power with his stage 2+ kit http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=513361&page=2 As you can see there is a dyno of his car making 465 whp sae and there is a dyno of it making 487 whp sae in 4th gear that has been posted so im not sure why Omar is saying these numbers do not represent the kit "considering the octane difference" unless this car and akh both are having issues.


Jean

If you are going to post your own AA made dyno's you need to make the DRF files available with boost. As you can clearly see the dyno's you made do not match what your customers are posting. Even with your highest in-house dyno you are making 50 whp less than ESS stage 2 customer made dyno's at the same rated power crank. Also can you explain why the AA kit can't make power past 8K?

Taza

Pot calling the kettle black ? You spend as much time defending AA on the forums as they do and you do not even own an E92 M3. You should lay off the smack talk.

For the 1/4 mile guys who say dyno's do not matter, Drew ran a 130 mph trap with his DCT VT2-625 and has posted the results. Mikewads ran a 126 mph with his DCT VT2-575 and this was also posted on this forum I believe.

You are correct on the car and once again it was not operating properly, a/f in the 10's which was not mentioned or posted in this thread. Which i am sure was found when this dyno chart was found in the "database"...

So assuming it is down on power due to 91 octane would be incorrect as this car has an issue... Not a fair comparison if you ask me.

akh23456's car made ~499 with meth off and cats. I am sure it would have easily picked up more power with meth on and no cats... Data to support the cats is in my thread.
The meth is used as an extra form of charge cooling which would provide a cooler charge which equals more power. I am sure this is already understood.

As far as 1/4, akh23456 ran a better trap speed than another member with more power (and supposedly not operating properly) at it was dubbed akh23456 has DCT and the matter was pushed aside... Not really trying to revisit this but comparisons should be fair 100% of the time, not twisted when the opportunity shows itself...

mindless.spades wrote

It was not directed at you, nor did I mean to antagonize you or burden you. I'm apologize if I offended you.

My comments were very general as I've seen similar post spiral into an ugly mess. I really love this community, but there has been hickups, and drama, and name calling, and few falling outs which is really upsetting for me as it's hard to find a group of people who are so focused and passionate about a single commonality (the M3).

I was not offended and theres no need to apologize but all what i wanted to do is make a clear point that im asking questions based on facts and looking for answers not tryin to desrespect anyone.

m33 wrote

Akh let's all plan a day for the strip , we all cool bro !! You guys were cool as well I would have hung out more but my spit fire son wouldn't sit still plus he kept talking shit to everyone on who's car is faster rofl I wonder where he gets it from

yea i know were cool man..the forum can make it seem like its not but i know where you guys are coming from so i understand your questions..i am in for anything man i am just trying to enjoy my car and love seeing other people mod their cars and see how they like them...If everyone had the same thing it would be quiet boring right?..lol i think your son was too busy breaking down his dance moves, did he get those from you as well lol? (he deff dances better than i ever can even when i am drunk lol.)

Studntloan wrote

I'm retired but strip occasionally for mod money.....
Why are you getting so offended , no one bashed Aa product, just asked questions based on facts that were already posted here

Are you retired and secretly working for Aa u seem the most offended

Seriously... NOBODY bashed AA...Omar came in here with guns blazing!!!

tazam3 wrote

Actually I'm not offended I'm quite disappointed from the BMW community. There's a couple pro ESS guys that simply take it too far. For reasons I do not know...

For example Drew, (sorry to bring you up bud) he has one of the fastest ESS cars and makes a ton of videos for them. He does not sit here and bash on other vendors. He also has my full respect bc of his attitude and no bs posts.

Img did not start this as a who's better thread tho and has been polite to Aa especially after the first comment they made accusing him of bashing, he just posted graphs

chris s wrote

Seriously... NOBODY bashed AA...Omar came in here with guns blazing!!!

Didn't mean to come off that way. Just making it clear that this does not reflect actual #'s from our stage 2 kit.

Studntloan wrote

Img did not start this as a who's better thread tho and has been polite to AA especially after the first comment they made accusing him of bashing, he just posted graphs

Same as above. Information has been posted here. Thanks and sorry for any misunderstanding. Enjoy your car my friend!

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=535345

The AA stage 2 kit is my car. I forgot to removed the Delete R and the car did put out a DME code for 02 Sensor fault. The issues has been solved and will going back to the dyno again on Thursday.

D

Omar@ActiveAutowerke wrote

Didn't mean to come off that way. Just making it clear that this does not reflect actual #'s from our stage 2 kit.



Same as above. Information has been posted here. Thanks and sorry for any misunderstanding. Enjoy your car my friend!

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=535345

It's all good, like everyone's said, we or he isn't bashing you, you have a good product, the end

chris s wrote

Seriously... NOBODY bashed AA...Omar came in here with guns blazing!!!

Studntloan wrote  

Img did not start this as a who's better thread tho and has been polite to Aa especially after the first comment they made accusing him of bashing, he just posted graphs

Im guessing you guys dont read other threads then, its an ongoing issue. But lets just get back to what really matters...

mindless.spades wrote

It was not directed at you, nor did I mean to antagonize you or burden you. I'm apologize if I offended you.

My comments were very general as I've seen similar post spiral into an ugly mess. I really love this community, but there has been hickups, and drama, and name calling, and few falling outs which is really upsetting for me as it's hard to find a group of people who are so focused and passionate about a single commonality (the M3).

^+1

D

Since we are comparing cars/kits...

Something not talked about much here is Air/Air and Water/Air cooling that these kits have. Remember you are comparing a non intercooled kit (like this thread) that has hardly any piping to flow through (the blower outlet shoots straight into the manifold-motor). AA's kit has to travel through an entire intercooled system. Their design is optimal for day to day use with less heat soaking. Nobody can doubt that a air/air system is more efficient in daily use. A water/air setup is an efficient system that will truly show larger results for dyno's and drag racing because it can cool the air down pretty well for a short period of time. This is mainly why its difficult and unfair to compare the 2 kits on a dyno especially.

Here's a cool read, source (http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/techFAQ.html#FAQ_4):

"How can an air-to-air intercooler be more efficient than a water based intercooler?

There is an overwhelming quantity of ambient air available to cool an air-to-air core relative to the charge air thru the inside of the intercooler (The iced down water intercooler is the only exception to this argument.). At just 60 mph, with a 300 bhp engine at full tilt, the ambient air available to cool the intercooler is about ten times the amount of charge air needed to make the 300 hp. Whereas the water intercooler largely stores the heat in the water until off throttle allows a reverse exchange. Some heat is expelled from a front water cooler, but the temperature difference between the water and ambient air is not large enough to drive out much heat. Another way to view the situation is that ultimately the heat removed from the air charge must go into the atmosphere regardless of whether it's from an air intercooler or a water based intercooler. The problem with the water intercooler is that the heat has more barriers to cross to reach the atmosphere than the air intercooler. Like it or not, each barrier represents a resistance to the transfer of heat. The net result; more barriers, less heat transfer."

And another nice read here: http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced%20Engine%20Tuning/Water%20vs%20Air%20Intercooler.html

Omar@ActiveAutowerke wrote

Didn't mean to come off that way. Just making it clear that this does not reflect actual #'s from our stage 2 kit.



Same as above. Information has been posted here. Thanks and sorry for any misunderstanding. Enjoy your car my friend!

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=535345

No worries Omar,just trying to clear things up !!!

tazam3 wrote

Since we are comparing cars/kits...

Something not talked about much here is Air/Air and Water/Air cooling that these kits have. Remember you are comparing a non intercooled kit (like this thread) that has hardly any piping to flow through (the blower outlet shoots straight into the manifold-motor). AA's kit has to travel through an entire intercooled system. Their design is optimal for day to day use with less heat soaking. Nobody can doubt that a air/air system is more efficient in daily use. A water/air setup is an efficient system that will truly show larger results for dyno's and drag racing because it can cool the air down pretty well for a short period of time. This is mainly why its difficult and unfair to compare the 2 kits on a dyno especially.

Here's a cool read, source (http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/techFAQ.html#FAQ_4):

"How can an air-to-air intercooler be more efficient than a water based intercooler?

There is an overwhelming quantity of ambient air available to cool an air-to-air core relative to the charge air thru the inside of the intercooler (The iced down water intercooler is the only exception to this argument.). At just 60 mph, with a 300 bhp engine at full tilt, the ambient air available to cool the intercooler is about ten times the amount of charge air needed to make the 300 hp. Whereas the water intercooler largely stores the heat in the water until off throttle allows a reverse exchange. Some heat is expelled from a front water cooler, but the temperature difference between the water and ambient air is not large enough to drive out much heat. Another way to view the situation is that ultimately the heat removed from the air charge must go into the atmosphere regardless of whether it's from an air intercooler or a water based intercooler. The problem with the water intercooler is that the heat has more barriers to cross to reach the atmosphere than the air intercooler. Like it or not, each barrier represents a resistance to the transfer of heat. The net result; more barriers, less heat transfer."

And another nice read here: http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced%20Engine%20Tuning/Water%20vs%20Air%20Intercooler.html

Taza

Making a general statement about design A over design B like you have without all of the variables being factored does not make much sense. If you would like to discuss a particular example of air/air VS air/water on the E9X M3 with data you have collected I would be open to that. There are many things you are not considering including installation complexity, tuning, boost levels etc... but lets cover just the basics.

First is that the cooling efficiency of any kit can vary. For example just because two cars run an air/air cooling system one can have significantly better cooling based on the design and quality of the kit. There is never any guarantee one design is better than another without testing on the kit being discussed and on the vehicle being discussed. Second you have to factor in the discharge air temps of the blower used when comparing any kits charge cooling to another. For example blowers that are less efficient and are spun faster will generate more heat which will have a negative effect on your total intake air temps after cooling. Third you have to consider placement of your air to air cooler in relation to the vehicle it is installed on and you have to know "with testing" that it will not block or add heated air to the factory radiator. Because of these many variables you have to consider the efficiency of cooling based on the design of the overall kit, the blower you use, how efficient the blower you’re using is and the vehicle you are installing the kit on.

We have used and still use air/air systems on some of our cars and could have used air/air on the E9X M3 but with our testing we found air/water to be more efficient with this application. Our current VT2 cooling system was designed for 1000 HP and up to 14 psi of boost. It is over engineered for the level of power it is currently being used for. I think the feedback from our customers who regularly track their E9X M3's will prove that our cooling system works extremely well in the real world "without water/meth" and you will also see that when our cars are run on the dyno back to back to back without cool downs the power stays very consistent.