BE Bearings removed at 5,130 miles

doogee wrote

I don't try to promote VAC. I like the brand and I try to defend them a little bit since their product is proven to work.
.

The weight of evidence is against you here. VAC is a massive, massive affront to the BMW community. Anyone with internet access who can google can pull up the most incredible number of fuck ups that company has done.

doogee wrote

Really? We're getting excited about bearings that were installed for only 5000 miles?

For the record I still think BE is a good choice, as well as VAC. I just don't think 5000 miles is anything close to getting excited about. Compared to the 40,000 mile VAC example MRF has shown.

Hey it's better than nothing, and it's better than WPC Bearings showed with 14k, yes it's only 5k miles, The motor just happened to be in for other work and the bearings were pulled, I don't see anything wrong with that. Does it prove it fixed the problem with no wear at 100k? No. Does it prove that BE bearings seem to be on the right track to potentially solving the problem or at the very least buy more time than OEM bearings do, it's pretty clear it does...

Also again, 40k miles now? See my old post regarding this false inflating of VAC numbers again

triggz82 wrote

It's a rabbit hole. Do enough research on this form and you'll find users slamming VAC bearings for poor business practices, others praising them showing absolutely no wear after 50k and others dictating it's the rod bolts and not the bearings at all.

lol that number keeps going up first 40k, now 50k? AFAIK the highest VAC bearings MRP removed where 33.5k miles, I haven't seen any higher mileage VAC bearings posted. If I missed them please share with us these bearings....

MRF's post below from this thread, I made the number that is often misquoted bigger so you can see:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1073979

Malek@MRF wrote

I will keep this straight to the point as much as possible. Here we have an engine I have torn down for a client. The engines history is as follows:

• 2013 BMW M3 Coupe
• 39,500 miles on engine + chassis
• 38,000 miles SUPERCHARGED via ESS VT2-625
  
• 33,500 miles with VAC Coated Rod Bearings + ARP Connecting Rod bolts
• Engine Oil Specification 10W-60 every 5000 Miles. At 10,000 miles, the engine was only filled with Liqui Moly 10W-60, not Castrol TWS and every oil service thereafter every 5000 miles.
  

Malek@MRF

Green-Eggs wrote

You also know they DO still sell them and STILL ship them out. A few people have reported this recently and were pretty pissed about it because they thought they were buying the new Clevite bearings instead. But that aside...

This is what some don't know and some choose to forget about VAC. That is shady business practices if you ask me, not the loads and loads and data BE has provided. The only criticism people have to BE is no evidence yet (because data and logical thinking isn't enough for them), I'm sure with time it will come.

How much data has VAC provided again?
Where are their transparent design principals?

We are just suppose to trust VAC like we trust BMW to spec an acceptable bearing clearance?

Sorry I misread the mileage. 33,500 miles supercharged is still a lot more credible. Let's not forget the photos Harrop has posted as well with 100+ supercharged dyno runs.

Also keep in mind the quote of "triggz82" is in KM. He's Canadian. 33,500 Miles is equal to 54,000 KM. That quote and thread are from the Canada section.

You guys need to stop taking my posts as "attacks". Once again, I've never argued that BE is a poor choice because I don't believe that.

doogee wrote

You guys need to stop taking my posts as "attacks". Once again, I've never argued that BE is a poor choice because I don't believe that.

Glad to clear that up, I always try to make sure I say miles/km when stating a number.

I understand you didn't say BE is a poor choice, perhaps this is the post the some are taking issue with.

doogee wrote

I openly admit BE is a good choice but refuse to recommend them to friends because of poor business practice.

tdott wrote

Glad to clear that up, I always try to make sure I say miles/km when stating a number.

I understand you didn't say BE is a poor choice, perhaps this is the post the some are taking issue with.

/Sarcasm On/
It's a real shame BE doesn't learn from VAC about how to conduct business in a transparent manner. They have so much to learn from them!

I wish I knew, exactly, how many E9X M3's were produced and how many of those had actual rod bearing failure.

McSwine wrote

I wish I knew, exactly, how many E9X M3's were produced and how many of those had actual rod bearing failure.

just stick around here... almost every week someone is posting pics of their rod bearings and almost without exception they are beat to crap

SYT_Shadow wrote

just stick around here... almost every week someone is posting pics of their rod bearings and almost without exception they are beat to crap

True SYT. However quite rarely they come up with failed bearings/engine though, which is what I believe the guy was asking for. In fact there are tons of 07-08's out there running with 60-90k miles on their original bearings.

Helmsman wrote

True SYT. However quite rarely they come up with failed bearings/engine though, which is what I believe the guy was asking for. In fact there are tons of 07-08's out there running with 60-90k miles on their original bearings.

I agree, but what bearings are supposed to look like is well known and the ones being pulled from S65s just look horrible

The bearings I pulled from my S54 with 130k miles and many, many track days looked significantly better than either of my S65s, which have 31k and 36k miles.
The 31k one I bought new, has never been used in winter/cold, had 5k oil changes with 10W60, got to warm up before getting beat on... bearings were still toast.
The 36k one I bought used and completely stock. Did not seem like it had been to the track (it is harder to hide signs of tracking than people think) and its bearings were also ugly.

In the E46M forum it was very, very, very rare to hear of engines blowing up due to rod bearings. Here... every few weeks someone has a blown one.

McSwine wrote

I wish I knew, exactly, how many E9X M3's were produced and how many of those had actual rod bearing failure.

You don't need to wish, you just need to search.

There is a blown engine registry here to give you an idea:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=786615

Production numbers can be found here:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=863649

SYT_Shadow wrote

I agree, but what bearings are supposed to look like is well known and the ones being pulled from S65s just look horrible

The bearings I pulled from my S54 with 130k miles and many, many track days looked significantly better than either of my S65s, which have 31k and 36k miles.
The 31k one I bought new, has never been used in winter/cold, had 5k oil changes with 10W60, got to warm up before getting beat on... bearings were still toast.
The 36k one I bought used and completely stock. Did not seem like it had been to the track (it is harder to hide signs of tracking than people think) and its bearings were also ugly.

In the E46M forum it was very, very, very rare to hear of engines blowing up due to rod bearings. Here... every few weeks someone has a blown one.

Agree in return mate, most S65 bearings seem to come out worn. Still, claiming that we see a blown engine due to bearing failure every few weeks I'd say is a slight exaggeration. On this board that is, obviously shit is happening which never comes up here but like wise I'm sure there are plenty 150k milers that we don't see.

What we do see on a weekly bases are bearing replacement. I'm certainly not an engine builder but what puzzles me is that most of them are pulled "just in time before boom", regardless of mileage. That indicates either S65's will start to pop like corns at some point soon, or most of them actually run for a fair or even substantial mileage before worn to the point of failure.

I'm maybe one of the few that still simply can't believe that BMW engineering should deliberately run a flaw design in production for years. Seems clear though that clearance of some reasons have been kept tight which should have included RB service directions along with strict guidance on warm up and maintenance routines. That on the other hand I view as a big flaw from BMW.

Helmsman wrote

I'm maybe one of the few that still simply can't believe that BMW engineering should deliberately run a flaw design in production for years. Seems clear though that clearance of some reasons have been kept tight which should have included RB service directions along with strict guidance on warm up and maintenance routines. That on the other hand I view as a big flaw from BMW.

Agree, it's possible they knew about it after the fact, but perhaps the cost to fix it was too great for them to eat, engine designers don't make that decision, management/shareholders/owners do. They probably felt that only a small number would blow up during the warranty period and after the warranty period they don't care. They probably decided it was cheaper to fix blown engines rather than issue a recall. Should not be any surprise that big companies don't always do what is right for the customer...

tdott wrote

Agree, it's possible they knew about it after the fact, but perhaps the cost to fix it was too great for them to eat, engine designers don't make that decision, management/shareholders/owners do. They probably felt that only a small number would blow up during the warranty period and after the warranty period they don't care. They probably decided it was cheaper to fix blown engines rather than issue a recall. Should not be any surprise that big companies don't always do what is right for the customer...

No doubt most companies let the money guide including BMW. However as they have changed RB design at least once during production I'd imagen they could have dropped in the right thing then. As the aftermarket guys claim they are able to do this without touching anything else in the engine design one wonder why BMW wouldn't be able to do the same thing.
Anyhow is what it is, I'm following the subject with interest and plan to do RB "service" at some point well after 60k miles. Hopefully keep smiling till then.

Cheers

BMW lost its motion to dismiss in the class action rod bearing case. This means the plaintiffs can get evidence from BMW. I suspect BMW will try to limit its disclosure as confidential so we may not learn anything for a while -- it will become public at trial but if it is damaging enough BMW may settle instead of risking a public trial.

pbonsalb wrote

BMW lost its motion to dismiss in the class action rod bearing case. This means the plaintiffs can get evidence from BMW. I suspect BMW will try to limit its disclosure as confidential so we may not learn anything for a while -- it will become public at trial but if it is damaging enough BMW may settle instead of risking a public trial.

Yes, this will be interesting to see what it leads to!

Helmsman wrote

No doubt most companies let the money guide including BMW. However as they have changed RB design at least once during production I'd imagen they could have dropped in the right thing then. As the aftermarket guys claim they are able to do this without touching anything else in the engine design one wonder why BMW wouldn't be able to do the same thing.
Anyhow is what it is, I'm following the subject with interest and plan to do RB "service" at some point well after 60k miles. Hopefully keep smiling till then.

Cheers

Agreed, only thing I can think of is that a change in spec of the bearings would have caused more costs than just the change in material of the bearings. They definitely could have done something about it if they wanted to.

Helmsman wrote

No doubt most companies let the money guide including BMW. However as they have changed RB design at least once during production I'd imagen they could have dropped in the right thing then. As the aftermarket guys claim they are able to do this without touching anything else in the engine design one wonder why BMW wouldn't be able to do the same thing.


Cheers

Very reasonable curiosity and skepticism.

Also, reviewing rod bearings for more/less wear may not necessarily be the only thing to check to validate BE bearings.

Looks like BMW now recommends 0/40 oil also. Just went to buy some oil at the dealership and that's what they told me

xiliy wrote

Looks like they now put 0/40 oil also. Just went to buy some oil and that what they told me

I say don't go there, but lets see what Deansbimmer, Dparm and the folks says.

My experience with 0W-40 was non-beneficial in any way.

xiliy wrote

Looks like BMW now recommends 0/40 oil also. Just went to buy some oil at the dealership and that's what they told me

Helmsman wrote

I say don't go there, but lets see what Deansbimmer, Dparm and the folks says.

The only car that has 0-40 recommendation from factory is the new m3/m4 engine. They still recommend 10-60 for the e9x

There is an article on bearings in the latest issue of hotrod. Input from clevite.