E46 or e92

yeah_knee wrote

Random q... you guys know a bank or lender that gives loans for private sellers? Chase only gives loans for dealerships for some reason

Lightstream they are affiliated with Suntrust bank. That's not who I got my loan from but they do Private sellers.

srmast1 wrote

It's gas mileage is also f**king terrible! But I would absolutely love to own one. I just don't have the stones because I am not a DiYer AND it's parts are quite expensive. Are they reliable in 6mt form? And like to what degree? They aren't too pricey these days. V10 M6 also. SYT, in your professional opinion, could you please compare the e60 m5 6mt reliability vs the e90 m3 6mt reliability? Just curious since I love the e60 m5 and would love to own a 2009 or 2010 at some point.

I'm not concerned about the gas mileage. There are a couple factors here:
-An X5 gets the same mileage as an E60 M5 if driven the same. If you step on it more then you're paying for your extra enjoyment, so you cannot blame that on the car.
There are many, many X5's on the road (5.0i's) which all get the same crappy mileage as the E60 yet no one is horrifed about them.
-Mileage plus miles equals cost. You may get 0.5mpg, but unless you daily drive it there is no significant cost.

The V10 is absolutely mega, the likes of that engine will never be seen again.
There are a few main issues with the E60/63. Most of them are teething problem and many were fixed with time:

1) high pressure vanos pump and oil feed line.
Problem: BMW didn't learn their lesson with the S54 and again used high pressure vanos. The vanos oil pump is in the sump and the oil line goes up to the engine. The line ruptures and the vanos oil pump breaks
Solution: the oil line was recalled and any car still alive has had it changed. As far as the high pressure vanos pump, they seem to have gotten better and you can check this when you do rod bearings

2) SMG
Problem: Cool when it works, a nightmare when it doesn't. Similar situation to the E46M3. Few people touch them and everyone is scared of them.
Solution: 6MT!

3) Rod bearings
Problem: Same insufficient clearance as the S65 as they are essentially the same engine
Solution: BE Bearings and BE-ARP bolts!

4) Structural engine problems/oiling
Problem: length of the bolts was insufficient and oiling squirters under the pistons weren't long enough
Solution: As model years went going by, BMW changed the length of the bolts holding the engine together and lengthened the oil squirters on the bottom of the pistons

5) Oil sump with only one drain screw
Problem: The sump BMW uses has a distinctive front mini sump which helps avoid oil starvation. They used the same design as the S54, AKA a single drain plug. This means up to a quart of dirty oil stays in the sump when you do your oil changes
Solution: after 2008 BMW added a front drain plug like the S65 has. If I had a pre-2008 I'd just timecert/helicoil a new one myself


A 2009-2010 seems like a pretty good buy. I haven't pulled the trigger yet as I already have two M3s and consider getting an E93 to complete the family... but the S85 is epic...

The S85 also seems to have worse main bearing wear issues and random (though rare) hydrolock via fuel injector dumping.

Why ARP bolts when doing the rod bearings? From everything I've seen there's no issue with the stock bolts, the ARP bolts take it more out of round than the stock bolts, they're more expensive, and the stock bolts have more clamping force. Seems like stock is cheaper and better...?

I'm optimistic about the BE bearings (and they're the route I'd go if I had an s65/s85), but I don't think we can call them a definitive "fix" yet. Need a couple hundred cars running them for a couple years without bearing issue before we can call the issue resolved, imo.

Are people rebuilding the SMG pump on the e60 yet? They are on the e46s at this point, which reduces those costs by an order of magnitude (I still don't want it).

S85 also has the vanos solenoid issue-- they have 4 of them, they seem to last 60-80,000 miles, and the price somewhat recently went from ~$170 each to $1600 each. Again, four of them on the engine. Relatively routine wear item.

E60s in general have issues with water leaking/entering the cabin. Not great for electronics.

And the e60 alu chassis (which I'm super jealous of, btw-- I'd LOVE to have an alu chassis) means crash repair costs are much higher means insurance rates are much higher. With e60 M5 values being what they are (stupidly cheap), it's extremely hard to crash one and not total it at this point. On the plus side, the alu chassis does mean you'll never have to deal with rust.

Despite all of that, I'm still tempted to put an s85 in my e46 coupe

The coupe is not a DD at this point, which makes it much easier to justify high cost/mile. But, I do think that would make it impossible to keep it under 3000 lbs with full interior...

Fun fact on the e60's alu chassis: outside of the M cars, where BMW went to town on weight saving the M3 and much less so the M5, the weight difference between a same spec e90 and e60 (e.g. N52 rwd e90 328i sedan vs N52 rwd e60 528i) is ~70 lbs! Pretty crazy, given the massive size difference between the two cars.

Obioban wrote

The S85 also seems to have worse main bearing wear issues and random (though rare) hydrolock via fuel injector dumping.

Why ARP bolts when doing the rod bearings? From everything I've seen there's no issue with the stock bolts, the ARP bolts take it more out of round than the stock bolts, they're more expensive, and the stock bolts have more clamping force. Seems like stock is cheaper and better...?

I'm optimistic about the BE bearings (and they're the route I'd go if I had an s65/s85), but I don't think we can call them a definitive "fix" yet. Need a couple hundred cars running them for a couple years without bearing issue before we can call the issue resolved, imo.

Are people rebuilding the SMG pump on the e60 yet? They are on the e46s at this point, which reduces those costs by an order of magnitude (I still don't want it).

S85 also has the vanos solenoid issue-- they have 4 of them, they seem to last 60-80,000 miles, and the price somewhat recently went from ~$170 each to $1600 each. Again, four of them on the engine. Relatively routine wear item.

E60s in general have issues with water leaking/entering the cabin. Not great for electronics.

BE-ARP bolts because unlike the ARP ones which deform the cap, these do not. They have the side benefit that they don't require stupidly complex torque procedures which no shop will actually do.

You are right the BE bearings are technically not proven yet, but I have a warm fuzzy feeling. My E90 got 40 track days this year and didn't blow sky high, so I'll take a peek at them this year or next and see what's up.

I haven't seen any rebuilds of the SMGIII yet but who knows. The issue isn't so much of actual complexity but the boogey man that scares everyone and makes them charge you an arm and a leg to touch the car.
It's possible you'll be able to DIY it for a fraction of the cost but it's specialized work.

I looove the E60... if I didn't track so much I would have already bought one for sure

SYT_Shadow wrote

BE-ARP bolts because unlike the ARP ones which deform the cap, these do not. They have the side benefit that they don't require stupidly complex torque procedures which no shop will actually do.

You are right the BE bearings are technically not proven yet, but I have a warm fuzzy feeling. My E90 got 40 track days this year and didn't blow sky high, so I'll take a peek at them this year or next and see what's up.

I haven't seen any rebuilds of the SMGIII yet but who knows. The issue isn't so much of actual complexity but the boogey man that scares everyone and makes them charge you an arm and a leg to touch the car.
It's possible you'll be able to DIY it for a fraction of the cost but it's specialized work.

I looove the E60... if I didn't track so much I would have already bought one for sure

I have to admit, part of my enjoyment with the stock bolts is it gives me a reason to use my Snap-on TechAngle to follow BMW's procedure. If I'm going to buy a $550 torque wrench, I gotta find reasons to use it

But, still, the OE bolts cost half as much and provide better clamping force!

I don't think the 40 track days is a particularly pertinent piece of data, since many people successfully do that with the stock bearings, and I've never seen any correlation between tracking and the S65/s85 bearing lottery issue.

A problem with M5s in general is that there's not a ton of incentive for aftermarket support/solutions, compared to M3s, because of the MUCH lower volumes in which they were sold. Plus any M5 specific factory parts tend to get stupidly expensive compared to the M3 version (e.g. s62 alternator: $1200. S54 alternator: $270, though I was able to work around that by rebuilding my M5 alternator myself). That situation often results in things like the VANOS solenoids (or SMG) never receiving an aftermarket, reasonably priced, fix.

yeah_knee wrote

I currently own a f10 m5 for a daily driver. But I?m itching for a fun weekend coupe to mess around with and hit the canyons with

Can?t decide between e46 or e92. Obviously e92 is more updated and more power but e46 is more classic and I love the linear power on the e46. And being that my f10 is dual clutch, I?m leaning towards manual for these cars. I wouldn?t mind dual clutch again on the e92, but I know the SMG sucked on the e46. So the e46 would be manual for sure

I would def go with the e92. The e46 is definitely classy and timeless but the raw power from the e92 is definitely worth it. The car is definitely well balanced and has a very planted feel on the road. Canyons wouldn?t be a problem in that car.

Obioban wrote

I have to admit, part of my enjoyment with the stock bolts is it gives me a reason to use my Snap-on TechAngle to follow BMW's procedure. If I'm going to buy a $550 torque wrench, I gotta find reasons to use it

But, still, the OE bolts cost half as much and provide better clamping force!

I don't think the 40 track days is a particularly pertinent piece of data, since many people successfully do that with the stock bearings, and I've never seen any correlation between tracking and the S65/s85 bearing lottery issue.

A problem with M5s in general is that there's not a ton of incentive for aftermarket support/solutions, compared to M3s, because of the MUCH lower volumes in which they were sold. Plus any M5 specific factory parts tend to get stupidly expensive compared to the M3 version (e.g. s62 alternator: $1200. S54 alternator: $270, though I was able to work around that by rebuilding my M5 alternator myself). That situation often results in things like the VANOS solenoids (or SMG) never receiving an aftermarket, reasonably priced, fix.

Just an opinion, but one of the techs at my Motorwerks dealership campaigns a track-only E92 M3; he maintains that the centrifugal loads on the wet sump S65 moves oil away from the bearings during sustained lateral loads and thereby effects their longevity.

GVIFlyer wrote

Just an opinion, but one of the techs at my Motorwerks dealership campaigns a track-only E92 M3; he maintains that the centrifugal loads on the wet sump S65 moves oil away from the bearings during sustained lateral loads and thereby effects their longevity.

I don't know... the oil sump of the S65 seems extremely well designed even if it is 'wet' instead of dry.
The S65 also has 1.4g lateral specification. That's better than the S55 at 1.3g

SYT_Shadow wrote

I don't know... the oil sump of the S65 seems extremely well designed even if it is 'wet' instead of dry.
The S65 also has 1.4g lateral specification. That's better than the S55 at 1.3g

Where is that listed? Any idea what it is for the s54?

SYT_Shadow wrote

I'm not concerned about the gas mileage. There are a couple factors here:
-An X5 gets the same mileage as an E60 M5 if driven the same. If you step on it more then you're paying for your extra enjoyment, so you cannot blame that on the car.
There are many, many X5's on the road (5.0i's) which all get the same crappy mileage as the E60 yet no one is horrifed about them.
-Mileage plus miles equals cost. You may get 0.5mpg, but unless you daily drive it there is no significant cost.

The V10 is absolutely mega, the likes of that engine will never be seen again.
There are a few main issues with the E60/63. Most of them are teething problem and many were fixed with time:

1) high pressure vanos pump and oil feed line.
Problem: BMW didn't learn their lesson with the S54 and again used high pressure vanos. The vanos oil pump is in the sump and the oil line goes up to the engine. The line ruptures and the vanos oil pump breaks
Solution: the oil line was recalled and any car still alive has had it changed. As far as the high pressure vanos pump, they seem to have gotten better and you can check this when you do rod bearings

2) SMG
Problem: Cool when it works, a nightmare when it doesn't. Similar situation to the E46M3. Few people touch them and everyone is scared of them.
Solution: 6MT!

3) Rod bearings
Problem: Same insufficient clearance as the S65 as they are essentially the same engine
Solution: BE Bearings and BE-ARP bolts!

4) Structural engine problems/oiling
Problem: length of the bolts was insufficient and oiling squirters under the pistons weren't long enough
Solution: As model years went going by, BMW changed the length of the bolts holding the engine together and lengthened the oil squirters on the bottom of the pistons

5) Oil sump with only one drain screw
Problem: The sump BMW uses has a distinctive front mini sump which helps avoid oil starvation. They used the same design as the S54, AKA a single drain plug. This means up to a quart of dirty oil stays in the sump when you do your oil changes
Solution: after 2008 BMW added a front drain plug like the S65 has. If I had a pre-2008 I'd just timecert/helicoil a new one myself


A 2009-2010 seems like a pretty good buy. I haven't pulled the trigger yet as I already have two M3s and consider getting an E93 to complete the family... but the S85 is epic...

Thanks for all that info!! Much appreciated!

Obioban wrote

Where is that listed? Any idea what it is for the s54?

It's in the technical reference of the engine, a really long and super interesting pdf from bmw.

The S54 one has to be somewhere!

This is one of the first thing I wanted to see when the S55 was announced... it's a shame BMW down rated their lateral gs. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the GTS and CS are 1.4g capable.

SYT_Shadow wrote

It's in the technical reference of the engine, a really long and super interesting pdf from bmw.

The S54 one has to be somewhere!

This is one of the first thing I wanted to see when the S55 was announced... it's a shame BMW down rated their lateral gs. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the GTS and CS are 1.4g capable.

I'm also interested in what the s62's was. It has a fairly unique system where the DSC module activates electronic scavenging pumps, of which it has one on either side of the engine, to relocate oil from the wet side to the sump under G load.

Said pumps are remarkably reliable-- I've never seen one fail. I guess they're well lubricated.

But, yeah, I've read the technical reference for all the engines-- just never saw the S54's lateral G rating, so I was curious if it was out there somewhere and I had missed it.

I spoke to the guys from VAC Motorsports and the worst rod bearings they've seen was on the S85 with very low miles. It was owned by an elderly guy and was supposed to be a the perfect car. Elderly owned with low miles.

Dr. Dre wrote

I spoke to the guys from VAC Motorsports and the worst rod bearings they've seen was on the S85 with very low miles. It was owned by an elderly guy and was supposed to be a the perfect car. Elderly owned with low miles.

That makes me feel like the s85 bearings must be reliable, because I've never seen VAC be right about anything.

Obioban wrote

That makes me feel like the s85 bearings must be reliable, because I've never seen VAC be right about anything.

ha good one. Me either

Pulled the trigger on an e92... came with HR Springs already , HR spacers, competition wheels , RPI catback exhaust. Runs great... I love the way it drives... maybe more than my m5

Red interior is a nice option as well.

Congratulations.

Beautiful! I love that color combo!!

Victory!

Thanks fellas... never had a natural aspirated car.. always had turbos ... I love ittttttt

As Zoidberg would say, "Why not both?"

Now do the next logical thing.... buy an E46 M3 anyway.

I own both... E92 is my fun street car, E46 is the hardcore track car. One can never have too many M's...