Staggered vs. square

Dave07997S wrote

When you consider the extra width, yes. Also got a more aggressive offset. The rear are 25mm offset. The weight savings meant going with the wider tire negated the weight increase of the larger rubber. I didn't want the increase of more rubber to penalize me because of weight. So I basically got more rubber, wider wheels and a more aggressive offset without a weight penalty.

When compared to running square ZCP with the same 275/295 tires, you saved 2lb on the front wheels and about 1.4lb on the rear (don't have an exact weight spec for your offset). Personally, I'm fine with this minor weight penalty to get a better looking wheel, but that's just me. Your priorities are different and perhaps you actually prefer the look of the VMRs which would really make it a no-brainer across the board.

Don't get me wrong, I do like your setup! I'd put it very closely behind F14 SDC in the looks department. I'm just not sure I agree with weight savings over ZCP being a noticeable advantage here like it would be if we were comparing to 18s. The more aggressive offset is nice but spacers would give you the same result.

The only real advantage I can get behind over square ZCP is the extra inch of width in the back, which is clearly something that is important to a lot of folks in this thread so I certainly don't mean to write off that factor. At the same time, I've seen plenty of other people in other threads post glowing impressions of 295 tires on ZCPs so I'm thinking the handling benefit of +1" width is marginal at best in the real world. I'm sure the added sidewall support matters more on the track, but if track use is the priority then the weight savings of 18s would be a much more important factor to consider and we'd be comparing completely different wheels.

I'll also point out that without a supercharger, I wouldn't go out of my way to have a 295 rear in the first place, 275 would be plenty and there would be no need/preference to run an 19x11" rear on the street.

Edit to respond to your edit:

Dave07997S wrote

The car was transformed with this, I can't stress this enough. You go with a 9.5-10" wide front with a 275 tire up front and the amount of mechanical grip is amazing. The same goes for the rear with a 11" wide and 295 outback.

I'm not so sure you would notice a big difference in mechanical grip with a 295 on a 10" wheel versus an 11" wheel. But I could be wrong. If you venture outside of M3post and Google "295 on a 10 inch wheel" you will see that it's actually a commonly used/recommended setup across multiple car forums.

Iyzmi wrote

When compared to running square ZCP with the same 275/295 tires, you saved 2lb on the front wheels and about 1.4lb on the rear (don't have an exact weight spec for your offset). Personally, I'm fine with this minor weight penalty to get a better looking wheel, but that's just me. Your priorities are different and perhaps you actually prefer the look of the VMRs which would really make it a no-brainer across the board.

Don't get me wrong, I do like your setup! I'd put it very closely behind F14 SDC in the looks department. I'm just not sure I agree with weight savings over ZCP being a noticeable advantage here like it would be if we were comparing to 18s. The more aggressive offset is nice but spacers would give you the same result.

The only real advantage I can get behind over square ZCP is the extra inch of width in the back, which is clearly something that is important to a lot of folks in this thread so I certainly don't mean to write off that factor. At the same time, I've seen plenty of other people in other threads post glowing impressions of 295 tires on ZCPs so I'm thinking the handling benefit of +1" width is marginal at best in the real world. I'm sure the added sidewall support matters more on the track, but if track use is the priority then the weight savings of 18s would be a much more important factor to consider and we'd be comparing completely different wheels.

I'll also point out that without a supercharger, I wouldn't go out of my way to have a 295 rear in the first place, 275 would be plenty and there would be no need/preference to run an 19x11" rear on the street.

Edit to respond to your edit:


I'm not so sure you would notice a big difference in mechanical grip with a 295 on a 10" wheel versus an 11" wheel. But I could be wrong. If you venture outside of M3post and Google "295 on a 10 inch wheel" you will see that it's actually a commonly used/recommended setup across multiple car forums.

I was going to do a 275/295 setup on OEM ZCP wheels. A neighbor had it done and to be frank it didn't look right. The sidewalls didn't look supported. Also, you are putting a heavier tire on a already heavier wheel. The net result would have been a 3-4lb added weight per corner of rotational mass vs. the new setup. Not to mention I probably would have wanted to run spacers to bring the wheels out a tad as the front with a 9" ET31 wasn't as aggressive that I wanted and the spacers would have added even more weight and possible issues of adding the spacers. Im not a big fan of spacers. I feel if you want the more aggressive setup get the proper wheel.

I originally wanted a Forgestar F14 but they didn't have hyper-silver and the wait was way to long. The VMR V810 had similar construction/weight and look of a ZCP with immediate availability.

Its your car bro, do what you like. Just take it from someone who has already been down this road and had similar questions as you. If you see my car in person with the setup you could change your mind.

Dave07997S wrote

I was going to do a 275/295 setup on OEM ZCP wheels. A neighbor had it done and to be frank it didn't look right. The sidewalls didn't look supported.

If I end up getting used OEM wheels, I'll probably run 255/295 as I would not want a 275 up front on a 9" wheel and agree that doesn't look right. I've looked at plenty of pics and think a 295 on ZCP looks perfect. Here are a couple examples:

Dave07997S wrote

Also, you are putting a heavier tire on a already heavier wheel. The net result would have been a 3-4lb added weight per corner of rotational mass vs. the new setup.

But I'm comparing like for like in terms of tires. I'd be using the exact same tires on square ZCPs as you are using on VMRs. Thus, the weight difference between these two setups is 2lb at most which I would call "minor."

Dave07997S wrote

Not to mention I probably would have wanted to run spacers to bring the wheels out a tad as the front with a 9" ET31 wasn't as aggressive that I wanted and the spacers would have added even more weight and possible issues of adding the spacers. Im not a big fan of spacers. I feel if you want the more aggressive setup get the proper wheel.

A lot of people run spacers with absolutely no issues but if you're simply not a fan, that's fine. I am not willing to compromise my favorite wheel design to avoid using a spacer (though I'm not sure I'd use spacers anyway). If V810s look just as good as ZCPs to you and there is no compromise there, then I totally agree that I'd rather get the correct offset than use a spacer.

Dave07997S wrote

I originally wanted a Forgestar F14 but they didn't have hyper-silver and the wait was way to long. The VMR V810 had similar construction/weight and look of a ZCP with immediate availability.

Immediate availability is not a concern for me. I'd rather wait an extra month or two and get the "perfect" wheels than compromise due to impatience. I would only consider compromising if I needed new wheels ASAP for some reason.

I love the concavity of F14 SDC, that's what makes them unique. The V810 looks good too, but it's not as unique and just looks like a less-pretty ZCP to me.

Dave07997S wrote

Its your car bro, do what you like. Just take it from someone who has already been down this road and had similar questions as you. If you see my car in person with the setup you could change your mind.

I'm a big fan of the search function and have read your wheel-related posts dating back to 2010. You had similar questions but came to a different conclusion based on what is important to you. And your car looks great so there's no need to change my mind! I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm enjoying the conversation .

Iyzmi wrote

If I end up getting used OEM wheels, I'll probably run 255/295 as I would not want a 275 up front on a 9" wheel and agree that doesn't look right. I've looked at plenty of pics and think a 295 on ZCP looks perfect. Here are a couple examples:






But I'm comparing like for like in terms of tires. I'd be using the exact same tires on square ZCPs as you are using on VMRs. Thus, the weight difference between these two setups is 2lb at most which I would call "minor."



A lot of people run spacers with absolutely no issues but if you're simply not a fan, that's fine. I am not willing to compromise my favorite wheel design to avoid using a spacer (though I'm not sure I'd use spacers anyway). If V810s look just as good as ZCPs to you and there is no compromise there, then I totally agree that I'd rather get the correct offset than use a spacer.



Immediate availability is not a concern for me. I'd rather wait an extra month or two and get the "perfect" wheels than compromise due to impatience. I would only consider compromising if I needed new wheels ASAP for some reason.

I love the concavity of F14 SDC, that's what makes them unique. The V810 looks good too, but it's not as unique and just looks like a less-pretty ZCP to me.



I'm a big fan of the search function and have read your wheel-related posts dating back to 2010. You had similar questions but came to a different conclusion based on what is important to you. And your car looks great so there's no need to change my mind! I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm enjoying the conversation .

Oh I'm not taking this as argumentative at all. As you saw in the search I was very interested in doing this as well. I was going to widen a set of 10" ZCP wheels to a 11" and run a spacer. If you are only going to run a 255 up front I would do a 285/30/19 on the rear ZCP wheel. I had this on my car before I did the 19X10 and 19X11. The good news is that they make a 285/30/19 now with a Mich PSS.

As I think Richbot mentioned earlier in the thread, one interesting setup for those with 220M wheels, is to buy a 2nd rear pair to use up front. Then run 275/30-19 front and 275/35-19 rear -- keeps very close to the original diameter stagger, gives square widths all around, no problem with front rubbing of any sort, the 220M is forged and lighter than the 359M, and offset up front is perfect (et22) for a 9.5/275.

CSBM5 wrote

As I think Richbot mentioned earlier in the thread, one interesting setup for those with 220M wheels, is to buy a 2nd rear pair to use up front. Then run 275/30-19 front and 275/35-19 rear -- keeps very close to the original diameter stagger, gives square widths all around, no problem with front rubbing of any sort, the 220M is forged and lighter than the 359M, and offset up front is perfect (et22) for a 9.5/275.

Yeah but basically nobody likes 220Ms anymore. They went out of style 5 or 6 years ago.

Iyzmi wrote

Yeah but basically nobody likes 220Ms anymore. They went out of style 5 or 6 years ago.

It's all relative; then again, I've never been a crowd follower, so I guess that explains it. I'm far more likely to favor function and efficiency over style. Luckily we have lots of choices for the E9x in the wheel department, factory and aftermarket.

CSBM5 wrote

It's all relative; then again, I've never been a crowd follower, so I guess that explains it. I'm far more likely to favor function and efficiency over style. Luckily we have lots of choices for the E9x in the wheel department, factory and aftermarket.

Out of style now just means they're going to be so hot in 10 years. Run rears square, sell fronts to poseur non-M people, profit! Get yours now while you can! They're the most expensive wheel BMW sold for these cars by about $200/each!

I'm going to make millions on this idea.

Also, "function over style" and "220M blang blang polished look-at-my-BMW" wheels do not mix

Crap there was a set on craigslist in STL the other day for $700 really should have scooped those up.

I think I would just run 275/30-19 all around though. Now that I can do it, I like rotating too much, and the shorter gearing is nice

Dave07997S wrote

Oh I'm not taking this as argumentative at all. As you saw in the search I was very interested in doing this as well. I was going to widen a set of 10" ZCP wheels to a 11" and run a spacer. If you are only going to run a 255 up front I would do a 285/30/19 on the rear ZCP wheel. I had this on my car before I did the 19X10 and 19X11. The good news is that they make a 285/30/19 now with a Mich PSS.

That's what I'm running (255F / 285R on ZCP staggered wheels) and the balance is great for a pretty stock E90 for the most part.

For the guys that are running square ZCPs, what spacers are you running in the rear? I'm thinking of picking up another rear set and running 275s all the way around so I can rotate. Fronts obviously don't need the spacers, but I think the rears will look goofy without. 12mm?

Richbot wrote

Out of style now just means they're going to be so hot in 10 years. Run rears square, sell fronts to poseur non-M people, profit! Get yours now while you can! They're the most expensive wheel BMW sold for these cars by about $200/each!

I'm going to make millions on this idea.

Also, "function over style" and "220M blang blang polished look-at-my-BMW" wheels do not mix

Crap there was a set on craigslist in STL the other day for $700 really should have scooped those up.

I think I would just run 275/30-19 all around though. Now that I can do it, I like rotating too much, and the shorter gearing is nice

$700 is probably close to top dollar if the classified section is any indication. People post them for more, but end up sitting for months since there are practically no buyers. I think $500-600 is right around the going rate for a set of 220Ms.

Considering that they were the most expensive wheel offered for our cars, it may be the biggest price/value drop of any BMW wheel in recent history. And it's not even a bad looking wheel . People were crazy about them from ~08-10.

Richbot wrote

Out of style now just means they're going to be so hot in 10 years. Run rears square, sell fronts to poseur non-M people, profit! Get yours now while you can! They're the most expensive wheel BMW sold for these cars by about $200/each!

I'm going to make millions on this idea.

Also, "function over style" and "220M blang blang polished look-at-my-BMW" wheels do not mix

Crap there was a set on craigslist in STL the other day for $700 really should have scooped those up.

I think I would just run 275/30-19 all around though. Now that I can do it, I like rotating too much, and the shorter gearing is nice

+1 on function and the 220s look fantastic painted black:thumbsup:

spazzyfry123 wrote

That's what I'm running (255F / 285R on ZCP staggered wheels) and the balance is great for a pretty stock E90 for the most part.

For the guys that are running square ZCPs, what spacers are you running in the rear? I'm thinking of picking up another rear set and running 275s all the way around so I can rotate. Fronts obviously don't need the spacers, but I think the rears will look goofy without. 12mm?

I ran this setup on my 2011 ZCP for 3 years and one year with my 2013. Going from a 19X9 255/35/19 to a 19X10 275/30/19 front tire made such a huge difference in handling. The front end seems unflappable.

Dave07997S wrote

I ran this setup on my 2011 ZCP for 3 years and one year with my 2013. Going from a 19X9 255/35/19 to a 19X10 275/30/19 front tire made such a huge difference in handling. The front end seems unflappable.

What spacers did you run out back?

Dave07997S wrote

I ran this setup on my 2011 ZCP for 3 years and one year with my 2013. Going from a 19X9 255/35/19 to a 19X10 275/30/19 front tire made such a huge difference in handling. The front end seems unflappable.

Dave, could you please share your offsets for your wheels? I take it no spacers?

SYT_Shadow wrote

Dave, could you please share your offsets for your wheels? I take it no spacers?

I think he mentioned earlier that he runs +25 front and rear.

Iyzmi wrote

Yeah but basically nobody likes 220Ms anymore. They went out of style 5 or 6 years ago.

Woah, easy there cowboy. I like them. I just bought a second set and mounted 275/30 on the 4 rears so I can run square this year.

Ngilbe36 wrote

Woah, easy there cowboy. I like them. I just bought a second set and mounted 275/30 on the 4 rears so I can run square this year.

Like I said, it's not a bad looking wheel. I run 220s myself but the fact of the matter is they are not in demand. I wish that wasn't the case so I'd have an easier time selling mine once I upgrade to ZCPs...

Iyzmi wrote

Like I said, it's not a bad looking wheel. I run 220s myself but the fact of the matter is they are not in demand. I wish that wasn't the case so I'd have an easier time selling mine once I upgrade to ZCPs...

Do what you think looks good, not what the market thinks looks good.

Ngilbe36 wrote

Do what you think looks good, not what the market thinks looks good.

I agree with the market that ZCP looks good

Hey guys, 25mm offset no spacers front and rear.

So where did we land on the square setup vs stagger for daily drivers?

I’ve personally ran both and for daily driving I prefer staggared with OEM ratios. As mentioned, squared setups are nice for tire rotations but I just didn’t like the drive ability with them. The car felt less stable at higher speeds imo